Curse

akurun · Apr 06, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glints Bane

yeah first dont tell us not to complain...because this all started with the complaining of PvP players and we have the right as costomers to complain about whatever we want(in this case soul reaping nerf). I know other classes have been nerfed...but has their primary attribute been nerfed? I think not. I'm not going to lie soul reapping was getting bad in PvP because of spirit spammers....but how hard could it actually have been to just make it so that spirits dont give energy after their death?

Before spirit spammers Soul reaping was never a problem but when it becaomes a problem Anet nerfs the hell out of the whole thing instead of just fixing the current(and only) problem.

Soul reaping was bad in PvP not just because of spirits, but also minions. Previously they tried band-aid solutions like decreasing energy from spirits and minions, but soul reaping abuse still worked.

Other professions have had their primary attribute nerfed. Expertise works with rangers skills and attack skills now, and touch skills. It used to work on almost everything. Spawning power has effectively been nerfed, because the spirits whose health matters and the skills in spawning power that are worth using have been nerfed. The only spirits for which spawning really matters are things like shelter and union that lose health. They have been nerfed until they usually don't last 10 seconds. Fast casting is too weak to be nerfed, and if it were, actually would render mesmers useless, since most of their spells take a while to cast even with fairly high fc. Most of the good skills in energy storage(passive benefit is not very important, as your energy management skills are far more important than your max energy) have been nerfed to some extent. Strength is weak. Divine favor has been nerfed in a way. It's skills have been nerfed and the other monk lines have improved to the point that any more than 9 or 10 DF is usually a waste. Mysticism has been nerfed in that it is now less feasible and less useful to intentionally drop large stacks of enchants.

Soul of the Scythe · Apr 06, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glints Bane

but how hard could it actually have been to just make it so that spirits dont give energy after their death?

Very Hard considering, as I said before, doing this would make SR REALISTICALLY WORTHLESS IN PvP!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekretaal

No other class has had its primary nerfed. So, yes, no one else would understand what its like.

That's because SR was overpowered, the rest are not. And do your research before you say things like that. Expertise has been nerfed before. It used to work on almost any skill.

alen · Apr 06, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

[whisper] Signet of lost souls, weapon slots... [/whisper]

Evilsod · Apr 06, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Personally i think they should un-nerf Jagged Bones now.

The ONLY reason they had for it was that necros were abusing it for soul reaping. Now they've balanced soul reaping instead of trying bullshit solution that were never gonna work anyway.

There is no way you can say that JB was a balance, it was nerfed, pure and simple.

Lydz · Apr 06, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

/notsigned

MMs were overpowered...if they weren't ANet wouldn't have altered SR

para.normal · Apr 06, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lydz

MMs were overpowered...if they weren't ANet wouldn't have altered SR

Not every necro is a minion master. If you wanna nerf the MM, increase the cost of minion skills or find some other method to make them less powerful. The nerf to SR hurts the profession itself, not just minion masters.

Bastian · Apr 06, 2007, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Development Team

Soul Reaping's synergy with Spirits and minions opened up a lot of builds that simply never ran out of power. Spirits still provide half Energy, and with Soul Reaping's Energy gain limited, a player death will now provide more net Energy, which we believe will help Soul Reaping get closer to its intended function.

Dear PvE Scrubs,

If you cannot respect the goals of the Guild Wars staff to present a game that is fun for both the PvE and PvP crowd, please find a different game. The SR change has been needed for a very long time - and I am sure part of this time was ANet deciding how to change the attribute in order to reduce it from being overpowered while continuing the intended purpose of the attribute. Every caster class needs energy management in order spam skills. Necromancers should be no exception. Signet of Lost Souls is really great E-Management that you can already use because you already have points in Soul Reaping. Honestly, if players cannot be creative enough to change their builds in order to adapt to skill and attribute changes then you should stop playing MMO's (or whatever GW is considered), because history has proven that MMO's that don't change skills and balance games routinely fail to appeal to players in the long run.

------------------------------------------
EDIT:

When I say "Dear PvE Scrubs" it is not my intention to label all PvE players as Scrubs - only those that fail at PvE and whine about skill changes.

Aera · Apr 06, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Anet if your going to nerf something for PvP don't screw us PvEers over...

i lold...really...really...loudly

Turbobusa · Apr 06, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Personally i think they should un-nerf Jagged Bones now.

The ONLY reason they had for it was that necros were abusing it for soul reaping. Now they've balanced soul reaping instead of trying bullshit solution that were never gonna work anyway.

There is no way you can say that JB was a balance, it was nerfed, pure and simple.

QFT.
although it could be abused as you could still be able to gain ~10 per 5 seconds, which would only limit the spam.

Osi Ri S · Apr 06, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastian

If you cannot respect the goals of the Guild Wars staff to present a game that is fun for both the PvE and PvP crowd, please find a different game.

Well like they say, "You cant keep everyone happy" and it seems now that Anet is more concentrated on making people in PvP happy (not saying its bad, but it seems whenever they make a nerf its geared to fix things for PvP.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastain

Signet of Lost Souls is really great E-Management that you can already use because you already have points in Soul Reaping. Honestly, if players cannot be creative enough to change their builds in order to adapt to skill and attribute changes then you should stop playing MMO's (or whatever GW is considered)

Here is where you contradict yourself. You say people should be more creative and adapt to the changes but now with the SR nerf i hear alot of people including you saying "just use Signet of Lost Souls" well i dont think having one skill slot with SoLS in all builds just to keep a decent amount of energy promotes creativity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bastain

When I say "Dear PvE Scrubs" it is not my intention to label all PvE players as Scrubs - only those that fail at PvE and whine about skill changes.

It still sounds very childish and the only point of saying it had to of been to try to get under the skin of the PvEers complaining. Also i dont see the point in saying it, all that will cause is flaming back and forth from PvEer to PvPer and cause this thread to be closed.

Also DONT act like PvPers never whine, i mean how do you think these nerfs and such happened? PvPers whined to Anet about them.

BTW my necro is my main character, and personally i dont care about the SR nerf, i dont play PvP so SR in PvP never bothered me, and no im not whining about it being nerfed. Ill just adapt and continue playing like i always have with previous nerfs.

ALTHOUGH, IF Anet decides to keep the SR nerf then i suggest they change Jagged Bones to its previous state (5 second recharge) since its irrelivant to keep Jagged Bones nerfed for PvP's sake (since the SR nerf is apparently doing a better job at controling SR abuse than the Jagged Bones nerf did.)

Thomas.knbk · Apr 06, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glints Bane

The point is PvP wanted the change, they got what they wanted but it screwed with PvE.

SOUL REAPING WAS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING OVERPOWERED IN PVE TOO!! wHY DO YOU THINK EVERY SINGLE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING GROUP WANTED A MINION MASTER??
But who am I kidding here? If there was a skill that did 400 AoE dmg for 5 energy on a 1 sec recharge that had been there since beta and it was nerfed I bet you would still complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glints Bane

.its like saying mesmers can only fast cast every 5 seconds...or a sins critical hit can only take place every 5 seconds...Anet just didn't seem like they actually thought this through.

I really, really just want to say LOL UR BAD @ TEH GAME but I'll try to explain.
It's not like that at all, because gaining 3 energy is not like gaining 15 energy. A fast cast is not like gaining 15 energy either.

Yes, If they wanted to nerf MM's they could've altered the minion costs (40 energy for a fiend?) but that was not all they wanted to do. They wanted to nerf necromancers abusing skills from their secondary as well. The second point was probably a higher priority to them too.
But this nerf covered it all in one change, no matter how you look at it. maybe some of the hexes will need to have their costs lowered but I seriously doubt it. It's not like shit was dying more than once every 5 seconds in PvP anyway outside of SR abuse builds, and these hexes saw play anyway.

Lord Mendes · Apr 06, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Alright, I'm back home and I've read all the posts following mine, and I am still far from convinced.
The main arguments presented are "PvPers wanted a nerf, and they got it, and PvEers are unhappy".
Let me tell you why this statement is irrelivant.
PvP in guild wars is built around equality or balance. When something is clearly overpowered it is nerfed to make it "balanced" compared to the next best alternativesl. Because soul reaping was such an insane passive energy management tool, it was made "balanced" so that teams with necro primaries with masses of spirits no longer have infinite energy.
Now many of you will not understand this, but this overpowered attribute was destroying competitive PvP as we know it. It is the equivalent of having an un-killable mob outside the gate of torment (in other words, it was as serious as can be), and you needed to get past this mob in order to progress in the game.
PvP is tied solely to skill balance, and without it the PvP side of the game will just die, and GW will be left without a high-end goal.
PvE relies on many other things, and skill balance doesn't really affect the "playability" of PvE, because lets face it, PvE is easy.
You know what you are going to be facing, and all you have to do is change your build accordingly. The fact of the matter is, necros were overpowered energy machines, and they were balanced because they were too good.
People that have only played necro in PvE won't understand why they were too good, but if you read the math in my first post in this thread you will see how powerful they were.

Now if you are too stuborn to understand why they were so good, play an elementalist or a mesmer in PvE, and try spamming skills with the same energy costs as the necro skills on your bar.

<3 Capitan.

Glints Bane · Apr 06, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

yeah I suck at the game *sarcasm*. when I say the stuff about fast casting I'm not talking about energy gain at all...I'm talking about Soul Reaping is an energy gain and it does its job just like fast casting is does its...has nothing to do with energy just the job set for that attribute.

MithranArkanere · Apr 06, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Neither my MM heroes (I have one with each character but my necro) neither my Necromancer with MM build felt the change.

Only in high areas where minions are killed in one hit this could prove being a bother, but hey, there I use hexes, they are much more usefull there.

But one thing is true. Now that 'unlimited energy' is 'fixed', all necromancer skills should be reconsidered, to see which ones where overpowered and nerfed due to unlimited energy and wich ones due to real unbalance.

That is, after the change time to balance yet a lot more, mates.

Undivine · Apr 06, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

This thread, nay, this forum, isn't for flaming. ANet has made a change that I'm fairly certain they will stick with, sorry to say. The problem was that they did it so late in the game's life; people aren't used to it.

I'm closing this thread because this topic is just too easy to turn into a flame war. This happens, pretty much every time ANet comes out with a major update.

Just live with it. You're supposed to run out of energy once in a while.